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Post by Ken on Aug 4, 2023 17:08:18 GMT -6
I started with Brewtan B when the LO thing started. It turned out that Brewtan was not necessarily a LO ingredient (according to the LO guys) but I remember using it and I found that it made my beers really smooth. Super smooth. I used it religiously and then saw that people were talking about how any brewing setup that did not contain copper would probably not require Brewtan. Wasn't the issue that copper or other metals would oxidize the beer and that Brewtan would help with that? I added a stainless immersion chiller to replace my copper version and the braid in my MT is aluminum. So I stopped using Brewtan altogether. The other day I was going through my supplies and found some Brewtan and then I went to my notes on the first batch I used it on and I mentioned how smooth the beer was .. a helles. I also remember some people reporting that their beers were clearer with it. So I brewed this afternoon (my Anchor Steam homage) and I used Brewtan in the mash and in the kettle. I'll be curious if I find this beer super smooth or not. So the question: Who here is using Brewtan? Tell me if you use it and what you think it's doing for you. If you used it and then stopped, why did you stop? I know I originally heard about it from Denny. I went to my supplier this week and was reminded that I asked her about Brewtan (years ago) and she had no idea what I was talking about. Now she sells it.
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Post by brewbama on Aug 5, 2023 5:30:39 GMT -6
I use Brewtan in combination with Yeast O2 scavenged water to resolve the LO issue. Also, I find it greatly helps with clarity. For the record, I am not a HSA denier. I simply disagree with many on what to do about it. I base my belief on articles by Dr Bamforth and email correspondence with Joe Formanek (below).
From what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals.
Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer and cause staling.
I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, I can reduce and possibly eliminate the oxidation reaction. Brewtan is a heavy metal chelator.
In my opinion, I have a better chance on winning the reaction battle than the limit O2 uptake battle short of a room filled with inert gas and wearing a space suit.
So, I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the strike liquor.
Here’s one note from Joe:
Dear Dwain, You are exactly right! The divalent ions such as Cu or Fe+2 interact with free oxygen in the system and via Fenton’s Reaction processes generate free radicals which cascade to oxidize the system.
Reduction or removal of these ions reduce the incidence of these reactions regardless of the level of oxygen present.
Remember, though, that not all ions are removed, which is OK because some are important for proper yeast functionality. So a combination of oxygen reduction and ion removal is the best case scenario. Tannic acid is not so much an oxygen scavenger as it is an ion remover, so if there is oxygen present it will not have as much of an effect. This has worked well in systems where there is an inherent high level of DO due to equipment used.
Using Tannic acid as a mash water treatment helps remove the divalent ions right from the start of the mash and reduces the free radical cascade right from the start.
BTW – we were close to your location a few days ago when we were returning from a family vacation in Gulf Shores. Weather was just starting to get colder then.
Cheers! Joe
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Post by Ken on Aug 5, 2023 9:59:27 GMT -6
Joe also answered an email from me and I believe Denny had Joe on the show and Denny read a question that I asked to Joe. I remember when I still had access to the LO board (there were always issues with my login and eventually I could not log in .. gee, I wonder who would do that to me), the guys there called Brewtan "snake oil" (and worse) and said that it absolutely has no place in LO brewing and that it didn't help with oxidation. Bryan himself posted "How could it?". I digress. I go back to the fact that my beers were noticeably smoother when I used Brewtan. I don't think this is conformation bias because I had no idea what Brewtan might do for me. There was no bias to confirm. When I taste this latest beer where Brewtan was used, I will be alert. Some people mentioned it helping with clarity. I don't know if that was my case. Some people mentioned that it turned their strike water green . Btw, I added ¼ tsp of BTB to the strike water and ½ tsp mixed with water to the boil with 15 minutes left. I was looking for notes but couldn't find them but eventually I just remembered how I used it.
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Post by brewbama on Aug 5, 2023 11:55:16 GMT -6
Cults of Personalities aside, the original ‘Trifecta’ includes tannins. So, if it is snake oil, the LO guys have a hand in selling it.
Regardless, I stand on the mode of action Joe described in his email to me (above). Based on a few competitions I entered to get unbiased feedback, it surely hasn’t hurt anything.
Also, MoreBeer now sells the AEB ‘Trifecta’ mix originally touted by the LO group: “Oxblox 3D is a specially formulated blend of gallotannins, ascorbic acid, and metabisulphite that is added to your strike water right before mash-in. It dissolves easily and is extremely useful to reduce oxidation during the mashing process. Through multiple actions, it reduces dissolved oxygen levels and helps inhibit the lipoxygenase enzyme found in malt that is infamous for causing downstream wet paper / cardboard flavors attributed by the (E)-2-nonenal compound.”
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Post by Ken on Aug 5, 2023 20:25:55 GMT -6
Part of that trifecta was sodium metabisulfate, right? Was that the ingredient that when used in a high concentration caused the beer to taste like a giant fart? Literally fart beer. The LO guys first put the dosing at 100ppm, then 50, then 25, them 12.5ppm. I was using it at 12.5ppm and still had really 'farty' beer. Bryan said, "It will age out". The hell it will.
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Post by brewbama on Aug 6, 2023 7:02:37 GMT -6
Yes, I ruined a cpl beers with KMeta as well. I still have a bag of it if anyone wants it. It seems like all the kinks weren’t worked out before they published which resulted in various revisions.
Then, I was just using Ascorbic Acid along with BtB for a while but it was dropping my pH too low.
So, I settled on doing what Joe said: deoxygenate the water and use BtB.
I also use Bamforth’s recommendation: “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.”
To do that I close xfer into a CO2 purged keg, cold crash, and I only use three kegs: one I’m drinking, one on deck maturing, one cold crashing/carbonating/clearing. When a keg kicks, I rinse it ‘clean’ and soak it with hot water and milkstone acid until I brew again — usually within a few days to keep the pipeline moving. It works out to about a 3 week cycle.
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Post by Ken on Aug 6, 2023 7:42:51 GMT -6
Yes, I ruined a cpl beers with KMeta as well. I still have a bag of it if anyone wants it. It seems like all the kinks weren’t worked out before they published which resulted in various revisions. Then, I was just using Ascorbic Acid along with BtB for a while but it was dropping my pH too low. So, I settled on doing what Joe said: deoxygenate the water and use BtB. I also use Bamforth’s recommendation: “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.” To do that I close xfer into a CO2 purged keg, cold crash, and I only use three kegs: one I’m drinking, one on deck maturing, one cold crashing/carbonating/clearing. When a keg kicks, I rinse it ‘clean’ and soak it with hot water and milkstone acid until I brew again — usually within a few days to keep the pipeline moving. It works out to about a 3 week cycle. I still do a lot of that myself. Yeast + Sugar mixture in the water first. Mash cap in the MT. Underlet the mash with the heated strike water. Back to BTB now but I was also using the Ascorbic Acid and SMB. The CO2 from fermentation purges the destination keg the entire time and then I do the closed transfer to that keg. So there are some LO steps although I know those hardcore LO brewers would tell me I'm doing it wrong. Doing the closed transfer is easy because my fermenters have ports/spigots. It's been years since I used BTB and the very first batch I used it on was an eye-opener. When I went to my more simplified approach I started taking an inventory of things I could cut from the process and BTB was one because I had read some things about how it could be pointless based on some variables. Should be interesting. Cheers BB.
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Post by denny on Aug 6, 2023 13:14:47 GMT -6
I started with Brewtan B when the LO thing started. It turned out that Brewtan was not necessarily a LO ingredient (according to the LO guys) but I remember using it and I found that it made my beers really smooth. Super smooth. I used it religiously and then saw that people were talking about how any brewing setup that did not contain copper would probably not require Brewtan. Wasn't the issue that copper or other metals would oxidize the beer and that Brewtan would help with that? I added a stainless immersion chiller to replace my copper version and the braid in my MT is aluminum. So I stopped using Brewtan altogether. The other day I was going through my supplies and found some Brewtan and then I went to my notes on the first batch I used it on and I mentioned how smooth the beer was .. a helles. I also remember some people reporting that their beers were clearer with it. So I brewed this afternoon (my Anchor Steam homage) and I used Brewtan in the mash and in the kettle. I'll be curious if I find this beer super smooth or not. So the question: Who here is using Brewtan? Tell me if you use it and what you think it's doing for you. If you used it and then stopped, why did you stop? I know I originally heard about it from Denny. I went to my supplier this week and was reminded that I asked her about Brewtan (years ago) and she had no idea what I was talking about. Now she sells it. I'm still using it and my system contains no copper whatsoever. I just received a new shipment from Wyeast, because I had been out for a while. I _think_ my beers are clearer, better tasting, and longer lasting, especially the IPAs. That could just be confirmation bias. (see Novalager)
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Post by Ken on Aug 6, 2023 20:20:04 GMT -6
I started with Brewtan B when the LO thing started. It turned out that Brewtan was not necessarily a LO ingredient (according to the LO guys) but I remember using it and I found that it made my beers really smooth. Super smooth. I used it religiously and then saw that people were talking about how any brewing setup that did not contain copper would probably not require Brewtan. Wasn't the issue that copper or other metals would oxidize the beer and that Brewtan would help with that? I added a stainless immersion chiller to replace my copper version and the braid in my MT is aluminum. So I stopped using Brewtan altogether. The other day I was going through my supplies and found some Brewtan and then I went to my notes on the first batch I used it on and I mentioned how smooth the beer was .. a helles. I also remember some people reporting that their beers were clearer with it. So I brewed this afternoon (my Anchor Steam homage) and I used Brewtan in the mash and in the kettle. I'll be curious if I find this beer super smooth or not. So the question: Who here is using Brewtan? Tell me if you use it and what you think it's doing for you. If you used it and then stopped, why did you stop? I know I originally heard about it from Denny. I went to my supplier this week and was reminded that I asked her about Brewtan (years ago) and she had no idea what I was talking about. Now she sells it. I'm still using it and my system contains no copper whatsoever. I just received a new shipment from Wyeast, because I had been out for a while. I _think_ my beers are clearer, better tasting, and longer lasting, especially the IPAs. That could just be confirmation bias. (see Novalager) Good to know.
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joed
New Member
We are the people our parents warned us about!
Posts: 36
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Post by joed on Aug 9, 2023 10:04:11 GMT -6
I still use Brewtan B also. Starting using it when I got in to the LO site and noticed that it made every beer I brewed much clearer post boil then just whirlfloc alone and much clearer post cold creash. As for smoother, I am not really sure, have used it for so long, I just can't recall. Have since moved to an Anvil Foundry and don't brew LO anymore, but have a copper chiller so use it in mash and in boil. I am still a member of the Modern Brewhouse forums, though they are not as active now since they use Discord more now, but it seems that a lot of them have moved away from BTB in favor of Ellagic acid, an ingredient found in fruit, especially pomegranates. Supposedly the company that produces BTB is working on making ellagic acid for homebrewers, to be released some time next year.
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Post by brewbama on Aug 9, 2023 12:40:18 GMT -6
I saw a discussion on HomeBrewTalk about Ellagic acid a while back.
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Post by gusso on Aug 9, 2023 17:07:55 GMT -6
When do you guys typically add BtB? Mash, boil,?
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Post by Ken on Aug 9, 2023 20:10:11 GMT -6
When do you guys typically add BtB? Mash, boil,? ¼ tsp into the mash or strike water and then ½ tsp mixed with water and added to the boil with 15 minutes left.
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Post by brewbama on Aug 10, 2023 12:17:51 GMT -6
I add 1/2 tsp in my mash liquor prior to underletting the grain. I don’t add it to the boil.
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Post by Megary on Aug 10, 2023 12:56:39 GMT -6
Ken, BB -
These measured amounts are based on certain volumes of water, yes?
(x) tsp / (y) gallons of mash water??
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