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Post by shaggaroo on Nov 24, 2021 7:34:53 GMT -6
I think the problem is use of the wrong words... oxygen is dissolved as a gas in water... we degas the water or in other words, deoxygenate it. This is not dissociation. We're not splitting O2 into 2 O atoms because this doesn't easily happen either. And you're correct water doesn't easily split into H and O atoms; I can do it, but not by any of these processes... sorry, it's the chemist in me
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Post by Ken on Nov 24, 2021 9:59:38 GMT -6
I think the point is that homebrewers have a way around all of this and it comes in the form of letting the CO2 from fermentation purge the kegs for us. We could read through all kinds of discussions about how experiments are done, whether they're done properly, etc. but that doesn't interest me as much as someone saying "filling a keg with Starsan solution and blowing it out with CO2 does not purge the keg of O2". If I take that statement at face value and understand that I need to do something different then that's what I would do. Purging the keg with CO2 from fermentation is easy. Most brewers already have everything they need to do it and if not, it's some tubing and maybe some small connections and you're done. It also helps on transfer day... closed transfers, as little O2 being sucked into the transfer as possible, etc. I'm less interested in the nuts and bolts and more interested in the results. That's the non-chemist in me.
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Post by pkrone on Nov 24, 2021 15:42:02 GMT -6
It's really more about pushing out a liquid with CO2 will result in more "pure" CO2 in the keg than just purging an air-filled keg with a few blasts of CO2. You could just push out water with the CO2, but then you wouldn't have a sanitized keg. Pushing out air with CO2 produced from fermentation is much different than blasts from a gas bottle as well. That slow flow is much more effective.
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Post by brewbama on Nov 25, 2021 20:39:28 GMT -6
Any O2 left in the keg as some sort of residual, or disassociation, or whatever, will come into contact with the yeast still in suspension when you close transfer from the fermenter to the purged keg. Won’t yeast consume the O2 if any is present? It was my understanding that the ‘20 purge’ was if you used bottled CO2 at 25 psi. I could be wrong about that. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Post by Ken on Nov 26, 2021 9:29:18 GMT -6
Any O2 left in the keg as some sort of residual, or disassociation, or whatever, will come into contact with the yeast still in suspension when you close transfer from the fermenter to the purged keg. Won’t yeast consume the O2 if any is present? It was my understanding that the ‘20 purge’ was if you used bottled CO2 at 25 psi. I could be wrong about that. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk That graph looks familiar. Was that from the LO forum or posted on the LO forum? Also, I never considered that yeast that might transfer from fermenter to keg would come in contact with the O2 and scavenge it but it makes sense. It's actually very helpful to consider that because when I transfer I am calling it a "closed transfer" and it appears to be closed to me but the LO guys have discussed the concept of "moving beer from place to place" and how O2 is likely to creep in regardless of how closed you think the transfer is. So if I were to have some amount of O2 in that equation, it's interesting to consider that the yeast might take care of it.
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Post by denny on Nov 26, 2021 13:51:27 GMT -6
Not sure what you mean here Denny... O2 doesn't dissociate under normal conditions... Actually, I think Denny is correct. Ken said water is part O2 and the O2 can disassociate. We know H2O will not easily disassociate. I think that was Denny’s point. I am not sure of the correct answer to the original question. But water doesn’t easily break into H and O. Maybe Ken meant there is O2 dissolved in water and that O2 can come out of solution. Yeah, that's what I was getting at
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Post by denny on Nov 26, 2021 13:52:13 GMT -6
It's really more about pushing out a liquid with CO2 will result in more "pure" CO2 in the keg than just purging an air-filled keg with a few blasts of CO2. You could just push out water with the CO2, but then you wouldn't have a sanitized keg. Pushing out air with CO2 produced from fermentation is much different than blasts from a gas bottle as well. That slow flow is much more effective. Exactly!
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Post by denny on Nov 26, 2021 13:53:19 GMT -6
Any O2 left in the keg as some sort of residual, or disassociation, or whatever, will come into contact with the yeast still in suspension when you close transfer from the fermenter to the purged keg. Won’t yeast consume the O2 if any is present? It was my understanding that the ‘20 purge’ was if you used bottled CO2 at 25 psi. I could be wrong about that. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk That graph looks familiar. Was that from the LO forum or posted on the LO forum? Also, I never considered that yeast that might transfer from fermenter to keg would come in contact with the O2 and scavenge it but it makes sense. It's actually very helpful to consider that because when I transfer I am calling it a "closed transfer" and it appears to be closed to me but the LO guys have discussed the concept of "moving beer from place to place" and how O2 is likely to creep in regardless of how closed you think the transfer is. So if I were to have some amount of O2 in that equation, it's interesting to consider that the yeast might take care of it. I believe that chart is talking about when you just pull the PRV after filling the keg.
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Post by Ken on Nov 26, 2021 15:15:36 GMT -6
That graph looks familiar. Was that from the LO forum or posted on the LO forum? Also, I never considered that yeast that might transfer from fermenter to keg would come in contact with the O2 and scavenge it but it makes sense. It's actually very helpful to consider that because when I transfer I am calling it a "closed transfer" and it appears to be closed to me but the LO guys have discussed the concept of "moving beer from place to place" and how O2 is likely to creep in regardless of how closed you think the transfer is. So if I were to have some amount of O2 in that equation, it's interesting to consider that the yeast might take care of it. I believe that chart is talking about when you just pull the PRV after filling the keg. Yes, agreed. I seem to remember one of the LO guys posting that and explaining the process. It was an eye-opener because I would fill an empty keg with CO2, release it by pulling the PRV and assume it contained zero O2.
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Post by brewbama on Nov 26, 2021 16:10:44 GMT -6
It's really more about pushing out a liquid with CO2 will result in more "pure" CO2 in the keg than just purging an air-filled keg with a few blasts of CO2. You could just push out water with the CO2, but then you wouldn't have a sanitized keg. Pushing out air with CO2 produced from fermentation is much different than blasts from a gas bottle as well. That slow flow is much more effective. Exactly! +1. When I have finished purging the sanitizer out with CO2 I tilt the keg towards the gas QD (with a trimmed dip tube) to drain the remaining sanitizer. I use floating dip tubs and the amount that is residual is kinda amazing. I drain until it sputters. Then quickly pull of the QD so I don’t drain CO2. I attached the drain tube to the liquid out post and purge the hose with CO2 pressure before attaching it to the fermenter spigot. Then I attach the gas tube to purge it. After it’s set up just open the valve and gravity feed the keg pushing out the CO2. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Post by brewbama on Feb 16, 2022 16:13:17 GMT -6
So… I had to get a refill on my 5# CO2 bottle and my usual gas supplier (Sexton) didn’t have any exchange bottles. The counter guy recommended I go to the fire extinguisher supplier (Koorsten) to have my bottle filled. I didn’t even know this place existed. …and it is half the distance from my house to the fire extinguisher service location than it is to the gas bottle exchange location. I saw two other HomeBrew style kegerator bottles sitting there but didn’t recognize the names on the service tags. So I know at least two other home brewers are using this source of CO2. Even if I purge my keg with fermenter CO2 and naturally carbonate with a spunding valve, I need CO2 to push beer out of the keg. …but do I now have a ‘low grade’ CO2 vs the bottle exchange? Or is it probably the same low grade stuff I’ve been getting?
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Post by Ken on Feb 16, 2022 16:29:52 GMT -6
I always wondered this but not enough to lose sleep. I have never asked any of my CO2 suppliers what the purity level of the CO2 was. They would probably just stare at me and blink. All of this reminds me that I found myself examining lots of areas of my brewing over the last 5 years and looking for ways to improve it even in small amounts. In some cases I succeeded but in other cases I spent a lot of time doing things that either didn't improve anything and possibly made the beer worse or at least wasted a lot of time. I am very happy with my beers especially with the "simplification" steps we have talked about. If my CO2 is industrial grade, so be it.
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Post by tommymorris on Feb 16, 2022 21:38:48 GMT -6
So… I had to get a refill on my 5# CO2 bottle and my usual gas supplier (Sexton) didn’t have any exchange bottles. The counter guy recommended I go to the fire extinguisher supplier (Koorsten) to have my bottle filled. I didn’t even know this place existed. …and it is half the distance from my house to the fire extinguisher service location than it is to the gas bottle exchange location. I saw two other HomeBrew style kegerator bottles sitting there but didn’t recognize the names on the service tags. So I know at least two other home brewers are using this source of CO2. Even if I purge my keg with fermenter CO2 and naturally carbonate with a spunding valve, I need CO2 to push beer out of the keg. …but do I now have a ‘low grade’ CO2 vs the bottle exchange? Or is it probably the same low grade stuff I’ve been getting? What are the prices at those places? I got to Nexair.
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Post by brewbama on Feb 17, 2022 9:37:55 GMT -6
It was ~ $15 at the fire extinguisher place. The last time I used the exchange it was ~ $18.
Edit: I am one step closer to being able to purge kegs with fermentation CO2. I installed a bulkhead fitting in the side of my fermentation fridge today. I can attach the fermenter blowoff tube to the inside and the tubing to the keg gas in QD on the outside of the fridge. I can place the tag end of the liquid out side into a bucket to catch the sanitizer.
As a secondary benefit, once I am ready to xfer, I can take that tag end and attach it to the fermenter spigot creating a closed loop.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by denny on Feb 21, 2022 16:04:14 GMT -6
I have never used anything but an industrial place for CO2. It's the least of my worries.
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