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Post by Ken on Jun 5, 2020 12:44:25 GMT -6
Don't think about CaCl or CaSO4 as ways to lower pH. They may lower it slightly but use the big weapons... lactic acid or acid malt. I use CaCl and CaSO4 to boost my calcium (which is only 34ppm in my source water) but also to adjust the character of the beer. This was probably mentioned earlier but chloride will give the beer a smooth, round, full and soft character. Think Oktoberfest. Sulfate does the opposite (kind of)... it makes the beer crisper and drier (think IPA). You want some combination of both but you can lean the beer in various directions when you favor one over the other. *AND*... you add calcium at the same time so I can get my Ca into the 50-60ppm range and also push the character of the beer with the CaCl and/or CaSO4. Also, I stopped using Epsom Salt. It's magnesium sulfate and grain already has a good amount of magnesium and if you need sulfate you can get that from gypsum and get calcium to boot. This can be an overwhelming subject. I am not an expert by any means. I have looked into all of this carefully as it applies to MY water and the styles of beer I like to brew.
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Post by denny on Jun 5, 2020 13:02:46 GMT -6
If you read the water chapter in Simple Homebrewing, I say to think of it as a 2 step process. Add the mineral to get the flavor you need, and see what it does to pH. Then use acid or lime to lower or raise the pH to your target.
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Post by denny on Jun 5, 2020 13:04:06 GMT -6
Don't think about CaCl or CaSO4 as ways to lower pH. They may lower it slightly but use the big weapons... lactic acid or acid malt. I use CaCl and CaSO4 to boost my calcium (which is only 34ppm in my source water) but also to adjust the character of the beer. This was probably mentioned earlier but chloride will give the beer a smooth, round, full and soft character. Think Oktoberfest. Sulfate does the opposite (kind of)... it makes the beer crisper and drier (think IPA). You want some combination of both but you can lean the beer in various directions when you favor one over the other. *AND*... you add calcium at the same time so I can get my Ca into the 50-60ppm range and also push the character of the beer with the CaCl and/or CaSO4. Also, I stopped using Epsom Salt. It's magnesium sulfate and grain already has a good amount of magnesium and if you need sulfate you can get that from gypsum and get calcium to boot. This can be an overwhelming subject. I am not an expert by any means. I have looked into all of this carefully as it applies to MY water and the styles of beer I like to brew. I use Epsom when I have enough Ca and still want more sulfate without increasing Ca.
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Post by Ken on Jun 5, 2020 13:04:17 GMT -6
If you read the water chapter in Simple Homebrewing, I say to think of it as a 2 step process. Add the mineral to get the flavor you need, and see what it does to pH. Then use acid or lime to lower or raise the pH to your target. Boom, there you go.
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Post by zymot on Jun 5, 2020 16:57:15 GMT -6
Now I remember why I tried Brun Water before but never used it. As a spreadsheet it is a pain to navigate and work with. Just getting a zoom where you can read it, it is amazing how difficult they make it. Must have been put together by an engineer.
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Post by OldMan on Jun 5, 2020 17:27:28 GMT -6
Cool old time water brew salt adjuster. instructions www.beerandloafing.org/hbd/fetch.php?id=44182Your going to have to play around with windows to get it to run - you need to install Vbrun300 in the same folder brewater.zip (74.39 KB) BreWater 3.0 Installation ------------------------- To install: 1. Copy unzipped files from BREWATER.ZIP into a temporary directory. 2. Run SETUP.EXE from this directory. 3. You can delete the files from the temporary directory. If you have trouble with SETUP.EXE, you can do a "manual install": 1. Create a directory for BreWater ("C:\BREWATER" for example). 2. Unzip all files into this directory. 3. Delete SETUP.EXE and BREWATER.ZIP. 4. Move CMDIALOG.VBX to your system directory ("C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM" for example). 5. Create a Program Group or Folder with icons or shortcuts to BREWATER.EXE and BREWATER.HLP.
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Post by Ken on Jun 5, 2020 17:44:14 GMT -6
Now I remember why I tried Brun Water before but never used it. As a spreadsheet it is a pain to navigate and work with. Just getting a zoom where you can read it, it is amazing how difficult they make it. Must have been put together by an engineer. I hate to admit it but I agree. I feel like most people breeze through it and for some reason I don't find it very intuitive. I realize it's 'step-by-step' (tab 1, tab 2, etc) but I just keep tripping and bumping into things with that product. Neddles and I actually broke it once. We were adding acid and we couldn't get the pH to go down. We added more and more and nothing. A swimming pool's worth of lactic acid would not change the pH. But, we must toast to Martin who put a tool together to help us mortals when we brew. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by zymot on Jun 5, 2020 20:26:27 GMT -6
I hate to admit it but I agree. I feel like most people breeze through it and for some reason I don't find it very intuitive. I realize it's 'step-by-step' (tab 1, tab 2, etc) but I just keep tripping and bumping into things with that product. Neddles and I actually broke it once. We were adding acid and we couldn't get the pH to go down. We added more and more and nothing. A swimming pool's worth of lactic acid would not change the pH. But, we must toast to Martin who put a tool together to help us mortals when we brew. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) The math and the science may be brilliant. I acknowledge the contribution of time, effort, passing of knowledge that Martin Brungard has generously shared with homebrewers. But the execution of the spreadsheet is so poor it is unusable for me. Some tabs the sheet is configured such that I cannot see column A. The Grain Bill tab comes with some default recipe that cannot be modified. The instructions tab is a verbose mix of instructions, explanations, and justifications. They ask for a donation. I would consider a donation if I knew the money was used to tear this spreadsheet apart and reformatting from the ground up. Hell, I would volunteer my time and effort to rebuild it to a workable state.
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Post by drez on Jun 5, 2020 21:08:31 GMT -6
Now I remember why I tried Brun Water before but never used it. As a spreadsheet it is a pain to navigate and work with. Just getting a zoom where you can read it, it is amazing how difficult they make it. Must have been put together by an engineer. I hate to admit it but I agree. I feel like most people breeze through it and for some reason I don't find it very intuitive. I realize it's 'step-by-step' (tab 1, tab 2, etc) but I just keep tripping and bumping into things with that product. Neddles and I actually broke it once. We were adding acid and we couldn't get the pH to go down. We added more and more and nothing. A swimming pool's worth of lactic acid would not change the pH. But, we must toast to Martin who put a tool together to help us mortals when we brew. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I actually find it really easy to use now. Maybe it is the engineer in me...
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Post by jimdkc on Jun 5, 2020 23:40:21 GMT -6
The nerd-geek in me kinda likes the complexity of Brun Water. It is kinda fun to play with. When I decided to return to brewing, I decided that I wanted to look into water chemistry a bit more. However, I also wanted to keep things as simple as possible. My local water is very low in calcium, very high in sulfates, and very high pH. Plus it has chloramine. Have to deal with the choramine first. Then, for anything light, I'd probably have to dilute the heck out of it... Might as well just start with a blank canvas to begin with. Fortunately for me, I ran across this thread over on HomeBrewTalk.com: www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/Now, that's a very long thread (And, yes, I actually read the whole thing! Don't do that... it's mostly people trying to over-complicate this very simple idea!) The whole idea is presented as recommendations by AJ deLange in the first post: You start with RO/Distilled water, add some calcium chloride, maybe some calcium sulfate, and some acid if necessary (either acid malt or direct acid addition) to bring the mash pH into range. Sounds familiar...
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Post by Ken on Jun 6, 2020 7:52:48 GMT -6
I remember reading that however long ago. AJ DeLange and Kai were both very helpful when I was looking into this topic and believe it or not, I contacted both of them directly (either with an email or a PM) and they BOTH responded to my questions personally which was awesome. You could find yourself trying to understand water for brewing purposes and you could absolutely find someone who either wants to make it more complicated or someone who may just not be the best teacher. I also like to keep it as simple as I possibly can. I want to understand what I need to know but I don't need to get too deep into the weeds. My issue for awhile was pale beers and I eventually understood pH control (neutralizing bicarb) and also keeping the water character correct for the style (basically keep the sulfate in check or dilute if necessary). For those who like to geek out, there are plenty of ways to do that. I need to learn it by the numbers.
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Post by denny on Jun 6, 2020 12:48:16 GMT -6
I hate to admit it but I agree. I feel like most people breeze through it and for some reason I don't find it very intuitive. I realize it's 'step-by-step' (tab 1, tab 2, etc) but I just keep tripping and bumping into things with that product. Neddles and I actually broke it once. We were adding acid and we couldn't get the pH to go down. We added more and more and nothing. A swimming pool's worth of lactic acid would not change the pH. But, we must toast to Martin who put a tool together to help us mortals when we brew. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I actually find it really easy to use now. Maybe it is the engineer in me... Yeah, me, too and I'm an idiot.
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Post by denny on Jun 6, 2020 12:49:20 GMT -6
The nerd-geek in me kinda likes the complexity of Brun Water. It is kinda fun to play with. When I decided to return to brewing, I decided that I wanted to look into water chemistry a bit more. However, I also wanted to keep things as simple as possible. My local water is very low in calcium, very high in sulfates, and very high pH. Plus it has chloramine. Have to deal with the choramine first. Then, for anything light, I'd probably have to dilute the heck out of it... Might as well just start with a blank canvas to begin with. Fortunately for me, I ran across this thread over on HomeBrewTalk.com: www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/Now, that's a very long thread (And, yes, I actually read the whole thing! Don't do that... it's mostly people trying to over-complicate this very simple idea!) The whole idea is presented as recommendations by AJ deLange in the first post: You start with RO/Distilled water, add some calcium chloride, maybe some calcium sulfate, and some acid if necessary (either acid malt or direct acid addition) to bring the mash pH into range. Sounds familiar... The problem with that is that AJ brews nothing but light lagers so his advice is tailored to that.
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Post by jimdkc on Jun 6, 2020 14:45:11 GMT -6
Which is why I tailor his advice to fit the beer... But, I think it's a good starting point.
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Post by Leftympfrmde on Jun 9, 2020 3:59:07 GMT -6
I hate to admit it but I agree. I feel like most people breeze through it and for some reason I don't find it very intuitive. I realize it's 'step-by-step' (tab 1, tab 2, etc) but I just keep tripping and bumping into things with that product. Neddles and I actually broke it once. We were adding acid and we couldn't get the pH to go down. We added more and more and nothing. A swimming pool's worth of lactic acid would not change the pH. But, we must toast to Martin who put a tool together to help us mortals when we brew. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I actually find it really easy to use now. Maybe it is the engineer in me... BNW has a bit of a learning curve to it, once its dialed in (which took me an embarrassing amount of time) it's a breeze now.
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