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Post by denny on Jun 4, 2020 12:39:03 GMT -6
Simple Homebrewing by Drew Beechum & Denny Conn. The section "Simple Water" alone is worth the price of admission. Thanks! Iwrote that section ad Martin Brungard confirmed it.
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Post by denny on Jun 4, 2020 12:41:17 GMT -6
I forgot, I normally add 5 stars 5.2 mash stabilizer. For Na additions...do you use table salt (non iodized)? Or baking soda? Get rid of the 5.2. Doesn't work with moist water and gives the beer an off taste.
From Bru'nwater...
Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is indicated by its manufacturer to "lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". Evidence by homebrewers indicates that this product does not produce a mash pH in the preferred room-temperature range of 5.3 to 5.5. That evidence shows this product does produce some pH moderation in waters with high Residual Alkalinity. However, the mash pH tends to center around 5.8 (room-temperature measurement). While 5.8 pH is acceptable, it is at the upper end of the desirable mashing range. The evidence also shows that in waters with low Residual Alkalinity, this product shows little effect on mash pH. Since Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is a compound with high sodium content, its use will elevate the sodium concentration in the brewing water. High sodium content can be undesirable from a taste standpoint in beer. Proper alkalinity control of mashing and sparging water may produce more acceptable brewing results for most brewers than with the use of 5.2 Stabilizer. To add emphasis to difficulty in using this product, the following conversation posted on Homebrew Talk between noted brewing water expert, AJ DeLange and the chemist from Five Star Chemical regarding their 5.2 Stabilizer product. "Tipped a few last night with the chemist who designed this product and was able to confirm that it is indeed a mix of phosphates (mono and di basic) that accounts for the presence of the malt phosphate. This is something I have long suspected and am pleased to have finally confirmed. Good manners prevented me from pressing him on it's efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label. But his comments on it were basically that most brewers shouldn't use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability."
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matt6150
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Patient Zero
Posts: 142
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Post by matt6150 on Jun 4, 2020 13:06:19 GMT -6
I forgot, I normally add 5 stars 5.2 mash stabilizer. For Na additions...do you use table salt (non iodized)? Or baking soda? Get rid of the 5.2. Doesn't work with moist water and gives the beer an off taste.
From Bru'nwater...
Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is indicated by its manufacturer to "lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". Evidence by homebrewers indicates that this product does not produce a mash pH in the preferred room-temperature range of 5.3 to 5.5. That evidence shows this product does produce some pH moderation in waters with high Residual Alkalinity. However, the mash pH tends to center around 5.8 (room-temperature measurement). While 5.8 pH is acceptable, it is at the upper end of the desirable mashing range. The evidence also shows that in waters with low Residual Alkalinity, this product shows little effect on mash pH. Since Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is a compound with high sodium content, its use will elevate the sodium concentration in the brewing water. High sodium content can be undesirable from a taste standpoint in beer. Proper alkalinity control of mashing and sparging water may produce more acceptable brewing results for most brewers than with the use of 5.2 Stabilizer. To add emphasis to difficulty in using this product, the following conversation posted on Homebrew Talk between noted brewing water expert, AJ DeLange and the chemist from Five Star Chemical regarding their 5.2 Stabilizer product. "Tipped a few last night with the chemist who designed this product and was able to confirm that it is indeed a mix of phosphates (mono and di basic) that accounts for the presence of the malt phosphate. This is something I have long suspected and am pleased to have finally confirmed. Good manners prevented me from pressing him on it's efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label. But his comments on it were basically that most brewers shouldn't use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability."
Hopefully everyone's water is moist.
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Post by Ken on Jun 4, 2020 13:11:04 GMT -6
Get rid of the 5.2. Doesn't work with moist water and gives the beer an off taste.
From Bru'nwater...
Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is indicated by its manufacturer to "lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". Evidence by homebrewers indicates that this product does not produce a mash pH in the preferred room-temperature range of 5.3 to 5.5. That evidence shows this product does produce some pH moderation in waters with high Residual Alkalinity. However, the mash pH tends to center around 5.8 (room-temperature measurement). While 5.8 pH is acceptable, it is at the upper end of the desirable mashing range. The evidence also shows that in waters with low Residual Alkalinity, this product shows little effect on mash pH. Since Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is a compound with high sodium content, its use will elevate the sodium concentration in the brewing water. High sodium content can be undesirable from a taste standpoint in beer. Proper alkalinity control of mashing and sparging water may produce more acceptable brewing results for most brewers than with the use of 5.2 Stabilizer. To add emphasis to difficulty in using this product, the following conversation posted on Homebrew Talk between noted brewing water expert, AJ DeLange and the chemist from Five Star Chemical regarding their 5.2 Stabilizer product. "Tipped a few last night with the chemist who designed this product and was able to confirm that it is indeed a mix of phosphates (mono and di basic) that accounts for the presence of the malt phosphate. This is something I have long suspected and am pleased to have finally confirmed. Good manners prevented me from pressing him on it's efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label. But his comments on it were basically that most brewers shouldn't use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability."
Hopefully everyone's water is moist. LOL, was thinking the same thing.
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Post by buscotucky on Jun 4, 2020 13:18:58 GMT -6
Good info, thanks!
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Post by Leftympfrmde on Jun 4, 2020 17:41:34 GMT -6
Something to think about with your NEIPA water is uping the Na. I know many will say no do not do this but it works well in the style to have a bit more Na in there. What have you been doing for your NEIPA water to date? Other than the acid addition for ph, I've added a little calcium chloride - had read that was a common addition, so took a shot.
What level of Na?
Been using a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of cloride:sulfate for my NEIPAs. Definitely rounds out the bitterness and mouthfeel.
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Post by zymot on Jun 5, 2020 9:28:02 GMT -6
I played around with EZ water. According to EZ Water, only three variables in your water profile affect your mash pH. They are Calcium, Magnesium, and Bicarbonate/Alkalinity. The other three, Sodium, Chloride, and Sulfate do not move the mash pH needle. At least as far as I can tell.
My water is a blend from multiple sources. My city water report has a high/low and average. Trying every combination of lowest and highest of the three parameters, produce pretty much the same mash pH. 5.74 - 5.79, grain bill = 9# base malt + 1# 60l crystal. Or 6.69 - 5.72 for grain bill = 18# base & 2# 60l crystal.
According to EZ water, I need to add about 40 to 50 grams of gypsum to get into 4.2 range. Depending on the grain bill.
Bottom line is I do not need to be too distracted by the variable values. The swing is not so great that I can go with gypsum addition to my mash water and get me into a comfortable starting point. Once I get a pH meter, I can do adjustments as required during the mash.
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Post by Ken on Jun 5, 2020 9:42:30 GMT -6
40-50 grams of gypsum? What am I missing here? Some lactic acid will get you into the 5.2 to 5.4 range for pH. Also, remember that dark grains are acidic. They won't move the meter THAT much but there is some impact. Also, I seem to remember calcium chloride and calcium sulfate pushing the pH lower by a small amount.
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Post by zymot on Jun 5, 2020 11:09:49 GMT -6
40-50 grams of gypsum? What am I missing here? Some lactic acid will get you into the 5.2 to 5.4 range for pH. Also, remember that dark grains are acidic. They won't move the meter THAT much but there is some impact. Also, I seem to remember calcium chloride and calcium sulfate pushing the pH lower by a small amount. I see what you are saying
I am hovering around 5.75 as very general average pH. I want to lower the pH down in the acid direction. (battery acid pH = 0)
According to EZ water, (Step 4A Adjust Mash Ph Down) add 40g gypsum will bring mash down to 5.22 pH.
Adding Slaked lime (Step 4B Adjust Mash pH UP) increased the mash pH to 9.23
Funny that Step 4a includes Acidulated Malt and Lactic Acid that also lower the PH. Adding either of these also lower the mash pH.
All my testing and simulation use a 9# base malt + 1# 30° crystal malt as a constant.
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Post by Ken on Jun 5, 2020 11:17:11 GMT -6
Acid malt or lactic acid are the play here. They will both lower mash pH. 40g of gypsum is a metric asston at the homebrewing level so that won't work. If you add something like 2ml of 88% lactic acid to the acid box you should see your pH go down.
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Post by Seven on Jun 5, 2020 12:05:38 GMT -6
Acid malt or lactic acid are the play here. They will both lower mash pH. 40g of gypsum is a metric asston at the homebrewing level so that won't work. If you add something like 2ml of 88% lactic acid to the acid box you should see your pH go down. This. 40 grams of gypsum will put your calcium at over 300 ppm and sulfate at like 700ppm, depending on source water and water amount, of course.
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Post by denny on Jun 5, 2020 12:08:08 GMT -6
I played around with EZ water. According to EZ Water, only three variables in your water profile affect your mash pH. They are Calcium, Magnesium, and Bicarbonate/Alkalinity. The other three, Sodium, Chloride, and Sulfate do not move the mash pH needle. At least as far as I can tell. My water is a blend from multiple sources. My city water report has a high/low and average. Trying every combination of lowest and highest of the three parameters, produce pretty much the same mash pH. 5.74 - 5.79, grain bill = 9# base malt + 1# 60l crystal. Or 6.69 - 5.72 for grain bill = 18# base & 2# 60l crystal. According to EZ water, I need to add about 40 to 50 grams of gypsum to get into 4.2 range. Depending on the grain bill. Bottom line is I do not need to be too distracted by the variable values. The swing is not so great that I can go with gypsum addition to my mash water and get me into a comfortable starting point. Once I get a pH meter, I can do adjustments as required during the mash. EZ Water is terrible. Sure, it's easy but it's inaccurate. And mineral salts are a lousy way to adjust pH. Just don't. Use acid to lower or pickling lime to raise.
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Post by Ken on Jun 5, 2020 12:20:46 GMT -6
I'll use EZ_Water to get a general idea. It's certainly simpler than BNW although BNW is more accurate.
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Post by zymot on Jun 5, 2020 12:32:13 GMT -6
Acid malt or lactic acid are the play here. They will both lower mash pH. 40g of gypsum is a metric asston at the homebrewing level so that won't work. If you add something like 2ml of 88% lactic acid to the acid box you should see your pH go down.
In EZ Water:
"Step 4a Adjust Mash DOWN" has 5 possible additions: Gypsum CaSO4, Cal Chloride CaCl2, Epsom Salt MgSO4, Acidulated Malt, and Lactic Acid. Adding any one or more of these in Step 4A makes the calculated Mash pH go down.
Step 4b: Adjust Mash pH UP:" has 3 possible additions: Slaked Lime Ca(OH)2, Baking Soda NaHCO2, and Chalk CaCO3, Adding any one of these or more of these in Step 4B makes teh calculated Mash pH go up.
I get what you are saying and it makes a ton of sense. But how do I square that with what EZ Water tells me?
From what I see: High pH? Add the lactic acid to get the pH down, and then MAYBE add some combination of Gypsum, Cal Chloride and Epsom Salt as required to get the PPM values to fall in the Palmer recommended ranges. As John Palmer once said, "You are adjusting 3 sides of a triangle."
In my example. 5 ml lactic acid gets the pH down & 5.3 & 5 g of gypsum gets the mineral profile about the middle of John Palmer's recommendations. With my variable water source, that is probably as good as any other solution.
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Post by zymot on Jun 5, 2020 12:39:36 GMT -6
EZ Water is terrible. Sure, it's easy but it's inaccurate. And mineral salts are a lousy way to adjust pH. Just don't. Use acid to lower or pickling lime to raise. OK. Noted. One download of Brewin Water coming up.
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