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Post by Ken on Aug 1, 2023 13:40:08 GMT -6
This is strange: I brewed a week ago. A 1.050 beer with 2112 pitched and 2112 likes 58-65° as a range. The controller is set around 58 but I feel like it's off a little bit so it's probably running around 60°. This beer is basically just a "gold lager" .. pilsner, vienna, flaked corn. 2112 has an attenuation number of 69% and I didn't want the beer to finish too sweet or malty so I added a pinch of Alpha Amylase just to boost the fermentability. What I added would be much lower than what the directions suggest. Here a week later the beer is still fermenting and I'm surprised. Like very surprised. Activity started quickly and robustly which is good but I assumed it would be done in 4 days or so. I assume you're certain it's fermenting and not just offgassing? Also, man, I gotta say...you take attenuation ratings too seriously. Their purpose is to compare on strain to another and don't necessarily reflect the attenuation you'll get. That's as much, if not more, dependent on the wort. I'm going on experience. Typically an ale or a lager will ferment here and be done in about 4-5 days. This is more "out of my experience" than anything else. If it's "off-gassing", it's unusual compared to other batches I have made. On the attenuation, I'm just using the information that is available. If I make RECIPE X with 1056 and I make that same recipe with S-04, I can clearly tell the difference .. the one made with S-04 is not as dry and crisp as the one made with 1056 .. it's maltier. So on this particular beer I wanted it to finish crisp and I thought a yeast marked as 69% attenuation might leave some maltiness behind. That's why I used the alpha amylase. Maybe this extra time it's taking is due to that. I can't imagine that it will be mouth-puckeringly dry. I had hoped to brew with the 2112 again this week but I may use the Novalager now. I have a bunch of empty kegs and need to pick it back up.
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Post by denny on Aug 1, 2023 14:01:40 GMT -6
I assume you're certain it's fermenting and not just offgassing? Also, man, I gotta say...you take attenuation ratings too seriously. Their purpose is to compare on strain to another and don't necessarily reflect the attenuation you'll get. That's as much, if not more, dependent on the wort. I'm going on experience. Typically an ale or a lager will ferment here and be done in about 4-5 days. This is more "out of my experience" than anything else. If it's "off-gassing", it's unusual compared to other batches I have made. On the attenuation, I'm just using the information that is available. If I make RECIPE X with 1056 and I make that same recipe with S-04, I can clearly tell the difference .. the one made with S-04 is not as dry and crisp as the one made with 1056 .. it's maltier. So on this particular beer I wanted it to finish crisp and I thought a yeast marked as 69% attenuation might leave some maltiness behind. That's why I used the alpha amylase. Maybe this extra time it's taking is due to that. I can't imagine that it will be mouth-puckeringly dry. I had hoped to brew with the 2112 again this week but I may use the Novalager now. I have a bunch of empty kegs and need to pick it back up. I like Novalager a lot, but I do get a bit of red apple when the beer warms.
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Post by Ken on Aug 2, 2023 8:03:30 GMT -6
I'm going on experience. Typically an ale or a lager will ferment here and be done in about 4-5 days. This is more "out of my experience" than anything else. If it's "off-gassing", it's unusual compared to other batches I have made. On the attenuation, I'm just using the information that is available. If I make RECIPE X with 1056 and I make that same recipe with S-04, I can clearly tell the difference .. the one made with S-04 is not as dry and crisp as the one made with 1056 .. it's maltier. So on this particular beer I wanted it to finish crisp and I thought a yeast marked as 69% attenuation might leave some maltiness behind. That's why I used the alpha amylase. Maybe this extra time it's taking is due to that. I can't imagine that it will be mouth-puckeringly dry. I had hoped to brew with the 2112 again this week but I may use the Novalager now. I have a bunch of empty kegs and need to pick it back up. I like Novalager a lot, but I do get a bit of red apple when the beer warms. I'm glad you brought that up. A couple questions: How egregious is this red apple character? I do not like the sound of that one bit. Is the red apple enough for you to say that you wouldn't use the yeast again? Also, do you know of any way to reduce the red apple? I see that Nova wants to operate between 50° and 68°. Do you remember what your fermentation temp was? Could I ferment near 50° and attempt to keep that apple ester low or gone altogether? At the moment I have 2112 (up and running), 1056, Nova and Baja. If I break out a new yeast and Nova has this apple gig going, I would probably pivot and use Baja instead.
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Post by denny on Aug 3, 2023 13:06:52 GMT -6
I like Novalager a lot, but I do get a bit of red apple when the beer warms. I'm glad you brought that up. A couple questions: How egregious is this red apple character? I do not like the sound of that one bit. Is the red apple enough for you to say that you wouldn't use the yeast again? Also, do you know of any way to reduce the red apple? I see that Nova wants to operate between 50° and 68°. Do you remember what your fermentation temp was? Could I ferment near 50° and attempt to keep that apple ester low or gone altogether? At the moment I have 2112 (up and running), 1056, Nova and Baja. If I break out a new yeast and Nova has this apple gig going, I would probably pivot and use Baja instead. I did 53F for about a week, 72F for about 4-5 days, then ramped down to 38F over 3 days, where I held it a couple weeks. I followed the schedule Lallemand suggested. I don't think there's anyway to mitigate it since it's right there in the description of the yeast. I don't even notice the apple straight out of the fridge. It's after it's been sitting for 1/2 hour or so that I notice it. It's not terrible and doesn't stop me from drinking it, but it's there. I don't think it's confirmation bias, but I intend to brew with it again to see what happens. As I always say about homebrew "experiments", it's not science unless it's repeatable. Few seem to do that.
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Post by Ken on Aug 3, 2023 13:47:46 GMT -6
Mmm, thank you for that. I went to my local supplier today to get CO2 tanks filled and while there I picked up some Omega Bayern and also Omega Mexican Lager. That red apple description is haunting me. I know it shouldn't but it does. It's quite possible that I wouldn't even pick it up but others might. I would hate to go through the trouble of brewing a batch and have it come out this way when I knew ahead of time. I also tend to use the same yeast on multiple batches and I really don't want keg after keg of RED'S APPLE BEER.
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Post by tommymorris on Aug 3, 2023 15:11:25 GMT -6
Maybe you should try someone else’s Novalager beer, if that’s possible. I brewed 3 batches with Novalager at 55F. I didn’t notice red apple and I thought all 3 were delicious beers. I am not saying it isn’t there, just I didn’t notice it.
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Post by Ken on Aug 3, 2023 15:18:29 GMT -6
Maybe you should try someone else’s Novalager beer, if that’s possible. I brewed 3 batches with Novalager at 55F. I didn’t notice red apple and I thought all 3 were delicious beers. I am not saying it isn’t there, just I didn’t notice it. Not sure I know anyone local who would have brewed with it. I'm thinking that it's possible that I don't pick it up. You know how you hear about this certain hop being woody or that hop being minty and these hops smelling like leather or something? I never pick that up. Ever. I do pick up diacetyl when it's there but otherwise I don't think my pallet is that sophisticated.
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Post by denny on Aug 3, 2023 15:29:49 GMT -6
Mmm, thank you for that. I went to my local supplier today to get CO2 tanks filled and while there I picked up some Omega Bayern and also Omega Mexican Lager. That red apple description is haunting me. I know it shouldn't but it does. It's quite possible that I wouldn't even pick it up but others might. I would hate to go through the trouble of brewing a batch and have it come out this way when I knew ahead of time. I also tend to use the same yeast on multiple batches and I really don't want keg after keg of RED'S APPLE BEER. Oh, come on! It's only beer, you can always make more. What if you loved it? How ya gonna know without trying it! Spirit of adventure and all that.
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Post by Ken on Aug 3, 2023 15:40:57 GMT -6
Mmm, thank you for that. I went to my local supplier today to get CO2 tanks filled and while there I picked up some Omega Bayern and also Omega Mexican Lager. That red apple description is haunting me. I know it shouldn't but it does. It's quite possible that I wouldn't even pick it up but others might. I would hate to go through the trouble of brewing a batch and have it come out this way when I knew ahead of time. I also tend to use the same yeast on multiple batches and I really don't want keg after keg of RED'S APPLE BEER. Oh, come on! It's only beer, you can always make more. What if you loved it? How ya gonna know without trying it! Spirit of adventure and all that. My spirit of adventure was crushed years ago when I tried so many different hops and yeast strains that did nothing for me. I made a lot of beer that was marginal at best or just not in line with my tastebuds. In the meantime I was NOT brewing with ingredients that I knew that I liked. When someone posts about a hop, malt or yeast and they say it has a subtle [something bad] character, I steer clear of it. If someone posts about a product that seems to be all the rage and everyone who tries it seems to like it, then I get intrigued. Novalager seemed to have a lot of fans which is why I bought it. But that red apple story .. I don't like the sound of it.
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Post by Megary on Aug 3, 2023 16:43:25 GMT -6
Oh, come on! It's only beer, you can always make more. What if you loved it? How ya gonna know without trying it! Spirit of adventure and all that. My spirit of adventure was crushed years ago when I tried so many different hops and yeast strains that did nothing for me. I made a lot of beer that was marginal at best or just not in line with my tastebuds. In the meantime I was NOT brewing with ingredients that I knew that I liked. When someone posts about a hop, malt or yeast and they say it has a subtle [something bad] character, I steer clear of it. If someone posts about a product that seems to be all the rage and everyone who tries it seems to like it, then I get intrigued. Novalager seemed to have a lot of fans which is why I bought it. But that red apple story .. I don't like the sound of it. So you bought a pack of NovaLager because everyone who tried it seems to like it (including Tommy) and now you won’t brew with it because Denny says it has a slight red apple character? Hmm. I’m thinking you should stop reading the internet altogether.
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Post by Ken on Aug 3, 2023 16:50:31 GMT -6
My spirit of adventure was crushed years ago when I tried so many different hops and yeast strains that did nothing for me. I made a lot of beer that was marginal at best or just not in line with my tastebuds. In the meantime I was NOT brewing with ingredients that I knew that I liked. When someone posts about a hop, malt or yeast and they say it has a subtle [something bad] character, I steer clear of it. If someone posts about a product that seems to be all the rage and everyone who tries it seems to like it, then I get intrigued. Novalager seemed to have a lot of fans which is why I bought it. But that red apple story .. I don't like the sound of it. So you bought a pack of NovaLager because everyone who tried it seems to like it (including Tommy) and now you won’t brew with it because Denny says it has a slight red apple character? Hmm. I’m thinking you should stop reading the internet altogether. Actually, I think Denny may be the only one who has mentioned the red apple unless someone on AHA mentioned it. But I take all information I hear about a product seriously. I'm just being honest .. I don't like to gamble with the beer I brew. I don't like to waste time or ingredients where one piece of the recipe has caused a problem with the beer. I also didn't say I wouldn't brew with it .. I just said I don't like that descriptor.
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Post by Megary on Aug 3, 2023 17:35:12 GMT -6
So you bought a pack of NovaLager because everyone who tried it seems to like it (including Tommy) and now you won’t brew with it because Denny says it has a slight red apple character? Hmm. I’m thinking you should stop reading the internet altogether. Actually, I think Denny may be the only one who has mentioned the red apple unless someone on AHA mentioned it. But I take all information I hear about a product seriously. I'm just being honest .. I don't like to gamble with the beer I brew. I don't like to waste time or ingredients where one piece of the recipe has caused a problem with the beer. I also didn't say I wouldn't brew with it .. I just said I don't like that descriptor. I got you. Just pulling your leg. But now I really want you to use it so you can tell us if the red apple is there or not!
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Post by Ken on Aug 3, 2023 21:32:55 GMT -6
Actually, I think Denny may be the only one who has mentioned the red apple unless someone on AHA mentioned it. But I take all information I hear about a product seriously. I'm just being honest .. I don't like to gamble with the beer I brew. I don't like to waste time or ingredients where one piece of the recipe has caused a problem with the beer. I also didn't say I wouldn't brew with it .. I just said I don't like that descriptor. I got you. Just pulling your leg. But now I really want you to use it so you can tell us if the red apple is there or not! Does Budweiser have a "green apple" flavor? I haven't had one in a long time but I feel like the last time I had one I got green apple. Bleh.
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Post by tommymorris on Aug 4, 2023 9:06:08 GMT -6
I got you. Just pulling your leg. But now I really want you to use it so you can tell us if the red apple is there or not! Does Budweiser have a "green apple" flavor? I haven't had one in a long time but I feel like the last time I had one I got green apple. Bleh. I’ve tasted the green apple in Bud, but I don’t think it ruins the beer. Definitely,some flavors are bad, but very low level fruit flavors in a lager sound a bit like Kolsch to me. I wondered about the Red Apple because it is in the Novalager product description, but I figured if I did taste it it would probably be complementary. I also figured very few if any non-brewers drinking my beer would be able to taste it.
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Post by denny on Aug 4, 2023 12:21:14 GMT -6
Does Budweiser have a "green apple" flavor? I haven't had one in a long time but I feel like the last time I had one I got green apple. Bleh. I’ve tasted the green apple in Bud, but I don’t think it ruins the beer. Definitely,some flavors are bad, but very low level fruit flavors in a lager sound a bit like Kolsch to me. I wondered about the Red Apple because it is in the Novalager product description, but I figured if I did taste it it would probably be complementary. I also figured very few if any non-brewers drinking my beer would be able to taste it. The most authentic German lagers use sauergut, which purportedly give the beer a grape flavor. I don't think Ken objects to those. I certainly don't.
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