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Post by denny on Mar 28, 2023 12:42:46 GMT -6
does it taste out of balance? They're only numbers. It's how the beer turns out that gives them any credence. I think that comes down to personal taste. I like a beer with some of that smooth, round fullness. If I taste a beer that seems too thin and dry I tend not to like it. I prefer it deeper than that. For those who have been to my place and drinking my beer, they seem to enjoy it and say that it tastes like high-quality beer. My BIL was in town and drinking at my dad's place (Miller High Life Light) and then came to my place and tapped a glass of Mexican Vienna, took a sip and sighed loudly. He said, "See? This is real beer. This is good beer. I've been drinking crap beer all week". It doesn't taste out of balance to me but maybe my tastebuds are different than others. On a loosely-related tangent: I sometimes see that a very simple gold lager made by a craft brewery has 15 IBUs. Or 18. I am never that low. But maybe I need more hops to offset the deep character added by the chloride. If my ratio was closer together (making everything more crisp and dry), maybe less hops would work. I'm spitballing. I think a lot of things can be achieved (and ruined) by water adjustments and I find it kind of fascinating. Call me weird. That's what I was getting at...if you like what you're brewing, no need to change the water. If you do change it, have a clear direction in mind. As to the IBU, there's lots going on. For one thing, you're assuming that what's listed as AA on the package is correct. That doesn't account for changes due to storage. Second, your system and process makes a HUGE difference in IBU, no matter what the software says. Did you ever listen to our podcast "The IBU Is A Lie"?. We talk to Glenn Tinseth about how he derived his formula. He specifically says that if you're not using whole hops and brewing on a system like his, including the same chilling time, there's no reason to expect your results to match his formula. Then we did an experiment having people brew a beer, than having them analyzed to compare real world to software predictions. Many of them were as much as 50% high or low. All due to process and equipment. |
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Post by denny on Mar 28, 2023 12:45:59 GMT -6
My water numbers here in Chicago (Lake Michigan water) have been very consistent since I started brewing in 1999. I have sent samples to Ward Labs a good 8-10 times and the numbers are always consistent... occasionally off by 1-2ppm in either direction. My Ca is only 34ppm so I started looking at CaCl and CaSO4 to give the yeast a bit more Ca and I realized that CaCl and CaSO4 do very different things for your beer. One creates a round, smooth fullness and one creates a crisper and drier character. They also lower pH which is good because the pH of my water is around 8. I have adopted the "Brewbama approach to pH" by getting my water to a pH of 5.5 prior to mashing and also adding dark malts to the mash once the mash is over so they don't futz with the pH. But I'm still a firm believer that some finesse with CaCl and CaSO4 can create wonderful properties and bring some better character to the beer. I just wondered about the numbers. To BB and Tommymorris who recently had the "Country Helles" recipe... any idea what your Cl and SO4 numbers were for that beer? My water has been the same every time I've had it analyzed for the last 20+ years |
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Post by brewbama on Mar 28, 2023 13:30:26 GMT -6
Having a long term reliable water source is a treasure. I just don’t trust my water source (but some do). So, I filter to get a very near blank slate. But honestly, Tommy and I did a cpl side by side brews and I couldn’t tell the difference. They were both good. Some goober at the club meeting said he could tell but I still disagree. 😂
I agree the software and spreadsheets are simply models. No way they can account for all the variables within and beyond our control. That’s exactly why I say there’s no way we’re accurate.
Get in the ballpark and close enough is good enough. IOW, for example to me, 1 ≈ 1.16.
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Post by Ken on Mar 29, 2023 8:12:37 GMT -6
On this topic, I plan to put a recipe together where I use pilsner malt, maybe flaked corn and neutral hops and the Novalager yeast and use a bit less chloride. With the higher attenuation of the Novalager and a more balanced water profile, the goal is a dry, crisp summertime lager. For those who drink everyday macro-lagers, some are thinner and drier while others seem more full-bodied and I realize all of that comes down to personal taste. I don't want to make Busch Light... don't get me wrong. But one beer in that family that I seem to really like is Modelo Especial... the gold version. In a bottle it can be skunked so I prefer it on draft or out of a can. It has quite a bit of color when compared to other 'pale' beers and I seem to like the character but then again... it's that Modelo yeast that gets me. I already have a recipe designed to get close to Modelo and I'll use the Baja for that one. I'll update the yeast threads once I brew with Baja and Novalager. Cheers Beerheads.
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Post by denny on Mar 29, 2023 12:37:46 GMT -6
Having a long term reliable water source is a treasure. I just don’t trust my water source (but some do). So, I filter to get a very near blank slate. But honestly, Tommy and I did a cpl side by side brews and I couldn’t tell the difference. They were both good. Some goober at the club meeting said he could tell but I still disagree. 😂 I agree the software and spreadsheets are simply models. No way they can account for all the variables within and beyond our control. That’s exactly why I say there’s no way we’re accurate. Get in the ballpark and close enough is good enough. IOW, for example to me, 1 ≈ 1.16. yeah, ball park is def good enough. The best water treatment is the least water treatment you can do.
Drew never knows what his water is in LA. That would drive my OCD self batty.
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Post by denny on Mar 29, 2023 12:38:53 GMT -6
On this topic, I plan to put a recipe together where I use pilsner malt, maybe flaked corn and neutral hops and the Novalager yeast and use a bit less chloride. With the higher attenuation of the Novalager and a more balanced water profile, the goal is a dry, crisp summertime lager. For those who drink everyday macro-lagers, some are thinner and drier while others seem more full-bodied and I realize all of that comes down to personal taste. I don't want to make Busch Light... don't get me wrong. But one beer in that family that I seem to really like is Modelo Especial... the gold version. In a bottle it can be skunked so I prefer it on draft or out of a can. It has quite a bit of color when compared to other 'pale' beers and I seem to like the character but then again... it's that Modelo yeast that gets me. I already have a recipe designed to get close to Modelo and I'll use the Baja for that one. I'll update the yeast threads once I brew with Baja and Novalager. Cheers Beerheads. I've heard from a few people now who have used the Novalager. Seems the ale character comes through, but all seemed to like it. |
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Post by Ken on Mar 29, 2023 13:59:57 GMT -6
On this topic, I plan to put a recipe together where I use pilsner malt, maybe flaked corn and neutral hops and the Novalager yeast and use a bit less chloride. With the higher attenuation of the Novalager and a more balanced water profile, the goal is a dry, crisp summertime lager. For those who drink everyday macro-lagers, some are thinner and drier while others seem more full-bodied and I realize all of that comes down to personal taste. I don't want to make Busch Light... don't get me wrong. But one beer in that family that I seem to really like is Modelo Especial... the gold version. In a bottle it can be skunked so I prefer it on draft or out of a can. It has quite a bit of color when compared to other 'pale' beers and I seem to like the character but then again... it's that Modelo yeast that gets me. I already have a recipe designed to get close to Modelo and I'll use the Baja for that one. I'll update the yeast threads once I brew with Baja and Novalager. Cheers Beerheads. I've heard from a few people now who have used the Novalager. Seems the ale character comes through, but all seemed to like it. "ale character" meaning "esters"? Mmm, I wonder how that varies based on fermentation temperature. |
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Post by denny on Apr 5, 2023 12:29:07 GMT -6
I've heard from a few people now who have used the Novalager. Seems the ale character comes through, but all seemed to like it. "ale character" meaning "esters"? Mmm, I wonder how that varies based on fermentation temperature. That's what they implied. Some used it on the low 50s, some in the low-mid 60s. |
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joed
New Member
We are the people our parents warned us about!
Posts: 36
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Post by joed on Apr 26, 2023 10:13:24 GMT -6
..I have adopted the "Brewbama approach to pH" by getting my water to a pH of 5.5 prior to mashing and also adding dark malts to the mash once the mash is over so they don't futz with the pH... Ken, can I ask, how do you determine how much lactic acid to use to get your water to 5.5 ph prior to mashing? I have tried this in the past after seeing Gordon Strong recommend this this in his books and BYO recipes, but seemed to be all over the place...I would add lactic using BeerSmith's water tool and my pH would either be too high or too low. Felt like I spent a hour each brew, adding lactic, then adding baking soda to bring a too low pH back up, then a little lactic to get it back down...etc etc. I use distilled water from the same source every brew, so my starting pH should be fairly consistent. My local water has way to much sodium and chloride to my liking to use for brewing. |
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Post by brewbama on Apr 26, 2023 15:53:33 GMT -6
I've heard from a few people now who have used the Novalager. Seems the ale character comes through, but all seemed to like it. I just tapped my beer brewed with NovaLager. I don’t get esters per se. It’s very clean tasting but the beer is still a bit cloudy. The slight hint of citrus I do get is anticipated from the Pacifica hops. I actually expected more citrus flavor but that leaves room for a second iteration. 😉 |
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Post by denny on Apr 27, 2023 12:30:42 GMT -6
I've heard from a few people now who have used the Novalager. Seems the ale character comes through, but all seemed to like it. I just tapped my beer brewed with NovaLager. I don’t get esters per se. It’s very clean tasting but the beer is still a bit cloudy. The slight hint of citrus I do get is anticipated from the Pacifica hops. I actually expected more citrus flavor but that leaves room for a second iteration. 😉 Just picked some up for a German pils. I'm a little concerned about the level of red apple Lallemand lists, but there's only one way to find out. I'll be fermenting at 53F, as per Lallemand tests. |
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Post by Ken on May 4, 2023 22:44:11 GMT -6
..I have adopted the "Brewbama approach to pH" by getting my water to a pH of 5.5 prior to mashing and also adding dark malts to the mash once the mash is over so they don't futz with the pH... Ken, can I ask, how do you determine how much lactic acid to use to get your water to 5.5 ph prior to mashing? I have tried this in the past after seeing Gordon Strong recommend this this in his books and BYO recipes, but seemed to be all over the place...I would add lactic using BeerSmith's water tool and my pH would either be too high or too low. Felt like I spent a hour each brew, adding lactic, then adding baking soda to bring a too low pH back up, then a little lactic to get it back down...etc etc. I use distilled water from the same source every brew, so my starting pH should be fairly consistent. My local water has way to much sodium and chloride to my liking to use for brewing. I started with filtered tap water that I know is around 7.9 pH. I added small amounts of lactic acid, stirred the water and then measured the pH with a meter. I continued to add acid until I reached a pH of 5.5. For me it turned out to be about 2.75ml for five gallons of strike water. On subsequent batches I continued to measure the pH of the water prior to heating after adding 2.75ml of acid and my pH was consistently at 5.5 so that's my process now. I add roughly half of that amount of acid to the sparge water and things have been easier and simpler since starting that process. |
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Post by brewbama on May 6, 2023 9:46:20 GMT -6
I began using an RO filter recently so had to quit adding acid to my brewhaus liquor. The tiniest little bit of acid would reduce the mash pH well below my target. I even switched to a very week Ascorbic Acid but even just an 1/8 tsp would sink my mash pH. I still withhold the dark grains until after the mash and add ~50 ppm CaCl to the mash but I eliminated the acid. Since then my last several batches have been in the 5.3 +/-.1 pH range. 🤞
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joed
New Member
We are the people our parents warned us about!
Posts: 36
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Post by joed on May 22, 2023 8:34:02 GMT -6
Ken, can I ask, how do you determine how much lactic acid to use to get your water to 5.5 ph prior to mashing? I have tried this in the past after seeing Gordon Strong recommend this this in his books and BYO recipes, but seemed to be all over the place...I would add lactic using BeerSmith's water tool and my pH would either be too high or too low. Felt like I spent a hour each brew, adding lactic, then adding baking soda to bring a too low pH back up, then a little lactic to get it back down...etc etc. I use distilled water from the same source every brew, so my starting pH should be fairly consistent. My local water has way to much sodium and chloride to my liking to use for brewing. I started with filtered tap water that I know is around 7.9 pH. I added small amounts of lactic acid, stirred the water and then measured the pH with a meter. I continued to add acid until I reached a pH of 5.5. For me it turned out to be about 2.75ml for five gallons of strike water. On subsequent batches I continued to measure the pH of the water prior to heating after adding 2.75ml of acid and my pH was consistently at 5.5 so that's my process now. I add roughly half of that amount of acid to the sparge water and things have been easier and simpler since starting that process. Thanks! Will have to give this a try again. I use distilled water that I get delivered to the house, so the pH should be fairly consistent and I do no-sparge brewing on my Foundry, so would be adding lactic to all the water upfront. |
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