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Post by Ken on Jul 14, 2020 8:29:28 GMT -6
As I look at an overview of my practices, I am generally happy with my brewing. I like the malts I've been using, I have been getting good hops and brewing good beers. My simple LO steps seem to be making good beers and I don't see making too many changes to that. But I have been looking closer at cleaning and sanitizing. I picked up some EasyClean which I like. I have been switching up between iodophor and Starsan just to keep the bugs on their toes. I have been boiling the silicone tubing and I have been getting medieval on my kegs (boiling water + EasyClean + a light scrub). So, some questions for you:
o How often do you break down your kegs and give them a good cleaning? o How often do you clean & sanitize your draft lines? o When you save yeast in a flask, Mason jar, etc., do you just clean & sanitize it or do you use boiling water? o How many times might you use the same yeast before retiring it?
I have been fermenting in plastic fermenters with a spigot. Each batch I take the spigot apart and soak it in EasyClean & hot water and then sanitizer. I also have small plastic caps to cover the spigot during fermentation so there shouldn't be a path to the beer/wort. I take apart my liquid QD each time (used to transfer the beer from fermenter to keg) and the tubing used for that has been boiled, then cleaned, then sanitized. My kegs have never looked better and I feel like my cleaning and sanitizing is good but I wonder how good. I occasionally use a yeast for 6, 7, 8 batches and I sometimes feel like I get a bit of a 'mutated yeast' flavor in the beer which could just be me using the yeast too many times. This does not translate to 'undrinkable beer' but I sometimes notice it. Even when I make a gel solution... I boil water in the pot first, then pour that out and add the gel solution and gently heat it. But I wonder where I stand WRT other brewers and sanitation. Maybe someone will mention something I never thought of.
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Post by poptop on Jul 14, 2020 9:48:30 GMT -6
o How often do you break down your kegs and give them a good cleaning? I break down the posts every other batch. Kegs are always scrubbed with Oxyclean and then Starsan or Iodophore. Said sanitizer is then pumped out via CO2 and then I rack a new beer or if nothing's ready the keg stays pressurized with CO2. o How often do you clean & sanitize your draft lines? Picnics are broken down per each new keg, soaked in Oxy and then sanitizer before being redeployed. Hose lines are a mere 2.5 feet. My keezer is in the garage, hence picnics that stay inside. Way too hot to consider real taps. I cut new hose when the hose in question gets "too discolored" for my liking. Always have several feet on hand. o When you save yeast in a flask, Mason jar, etc., do you just clean & sanitize it or do you use boiling water? Mason jars are my go-to and they are always put in the dishwasher after emptying. They too are kept in the garage and long rinsed with sanitizer before their next fill. o How many times might you use the same yeast before retiring it? I've gone as many as 5 times with a yeast but that will increase. When I get a new sack of "liquid" I always make a big starter and pour off some clean yeast, label it and store. I used to be very anxious to chill and pitch but not so much anymore. Let's use a lager as an example. I'll make a 2L starter and pour off 1/2 into a clean Mason for future use. The other half stays on the plate and when the wort of the batch being made cools, I rack a fresh liter into the flask and let that spin over night. Wort goes into the cooler and the yeast is pitched the next morning. Plenty of fresh viable delicious yeast to pitch. I wouldn't say I have the uber best sanitation practices but I think after my paltry 126 batches with no bugs, bats or bastards I must be doing something right From cleaning all the way through process I consistently look for ways to save steps.
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Post by zymot on Jul 14, 2020 9:57:53 GMT -6
I have found sometimes being "too fussy" about cleaning can induce new problems. Specifically taking things apart, cleaning them and re-assemble, only to discover my reassembly was not perfect, now I have a leak to deal with.
I have been saying for years, a great overlooked cleaner is plain old bleach. It is a great tool for the home brewer. Anything bleach touches will be sanitized.
There is a very good book (lousy miniseries) called The Hot Zone. It is about scientists working with the ebola virus. Throughout the book, these guys had chlorine bleach at the ready in case of potential ebola exposure. They could have used other stuff, but they trusted their lives with Chlorox.
I can hear the chorus ringing out, "It is not safe on stainless steel!" Certainly do not soak stainless steel with chlorox. But why would you soak stainless steel in Chlorox? To be honest, I very rarely use Chlorox on stainless steel. If I did, it would be for minimum exposure and deep rinse. But plastic and glass? No problems there. True, you have to rinse plastic and glass to get rid of the chlorox. You are wise assume your tap/rinse water is not germ free. OK, rinse with tap water, then use Iodophore or StarSan or what ever. But all you are asking Iodophore or Starsan to do is sanitize the tap water.
If I disassemble a plastic spigot, those parts are going to see a good solid exposure of bleach. Tubing? Bleach blast it. Ferment bucket? Yes, bleach. Carboy, Erlenmeyer flask or other glass? Bleach it, rinse it.
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Post by Ken on Jul 14, 2020 10:23:06 GMT -6
One thing that always concerns me is that yeast is the key to our hobby. The old Brewers make wort. Yeast makes beer analogy is always on my mind. But the thing about yeast is that you don't really know if anything is slightly wrong or mutated with it. If it's downright infected/contaminated... you know. But if it's just slightly off, the sniff test may not tell you. I remember being at Greg Noonan's tavern in Burlington, VT and sitting at the bar with him and my wife. He went behind the bar and tapped a glass of something (a German-style lager) and gave it to me and asked me to taste it. I did. He said, "Do you taste that? It's not right. I think my brewer messed up my colony of yeast and now I have to order another one from Ayinger". It was funny because the beer tasted okay to me but not to him. Yeast can have small issues that are not always evident and we cannot see or smell these issues. When I send yeast from fermenter-to-flask, that flask has been cleaned and is soaking in either iodophor or Starsan solution (along with a funnel) for a good 20 minutes before it's used. Then the flask is covered with sanitized foil. I can't see how any bugs could be in there. Maybe what I taste is dead yeast cells from using the same yeast over and over. I dunno.
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Post by poptop on Jul 14, 2020 10:43:34 GMT -6
Temperature changes, useage, hop matter, dead cells. The possibilities are there. I used the Diamond slurry for my American Lager just recently. I usually don't reuse slurry but it was there, and I was too lazy to spin up the fresh 940 I saved from last use. So 9 out of 10 I'm using virgin yeast from a previous starter. It works for me and so far without any hiccups. Not adverse to using slurry at all. Just have a routine I like.
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Post by Ken on Jul 14, 2020 10:59:43 GMT -6
Temperature changes, useage, hop matter, dead cells. The possibilities are there. I used the Diamond slurry for my American Lager just recently. I usually don't reuse slurry but it was there, and I was too lazy to spin up the fresh 940 I saved from last use. So 9 out of 10 I'm using virgin yeast from a previous starter. It works for me and so far without any hiccups. Not adverse to using slurry at all. Just have a routine I like. So you make a starter, use some of that yeast in a batch and save the rest and then make a new starter for that partial amount you saved and so on? You save that partial amount in the fridge? I could see it but that means more starters and I really dislike making starters. I have been getting very little hop and break material in my fermenter so I feel good about that. But could dead yeast cells give off a slight off-flavor? What's strange is that this doesn't always happen. I made something like 7 or 8 batches with that Diamond yeast and every one of them was clean and good. I have had a couple of questionable 940 batches and some that are very clean. I just wonder if it's a sanitation issue or a process issue. If someone knows that reusing slurry over and over is a no-no, I would look into it. I don't know that I have ever heard anyone say, "Don't use the same slurry over and over". I always assumed that if sanitation was where it should be, reusing slurry is fine.
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Post by poptop on Jul 14, 2020 11:18:24 GMT -6
I think we all know that repitching slurry is super common for sure. I usually make a 2L starter from fresh saved yeast, pour half for later use and then increase the amount left in the flask by adding fresh wort to the flask. I let that spin over night and pitch the whole thing in the morning. Guaranteed a healthy helping ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Yea, it's a little more work but.............. Also, with this process, since end of last year, I've been running 1728 (5 X), 3711 (4 X) and 940 (3 X). Had I not had the Diamond on hand I would have spun up the 940. I'm trying to stick with these 3 very versatile strains for as long as I can just to see how long I can stand it haha ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Ken on Jul 14, 2020 12:00:30 GMT -6
I think we all know that repitching slurry is super common for sure. I usually make a 2L starter from fresh saved yeast, pour half for later use and then increase the amount left in the flask by adding fresh wort to the flask. I let that spin over night and pitch the whole thing in the morning. Guaranteed a healthy helping ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Yea, it's a little more work but.............. Also, with this process, since end of last year, I've been running 1728 (5 X), 3711 (4 X) and 940 (3 X). Had I not had the Diamond on hand I would have spun up the 940. I'm trying to stick with these 3 very versatile strains for as long as I can just to see how long I can stand it haha ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) And when you have those unused yeast strains in the fridge, are they sealed up tight? Loose foil? Yeast might be one of the trickiest things for me (or my brain). I know it can be temperamental and I know it can be damaged and mishandled. But it's also at the heart of great beer so if that means I have to come up with a better yeast management system then so be it. I'd love to hear from some others on what they do, what has worked for them and what they have seen cause problems. Thanks P. EDIT: I could see using 34/70, S189 and Diamond on a more regular basis and just using it (maybe twice) and then just move onto the next dry yeast. I keep saying that if they made a dry version of 940 and Bayern I would be all-dry-yeast-all-the-time! ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by poptop on Jul 14, 2020 12:08:25 GMT -6
I so do want to get some Bayern again. Gotta stay strong to keep using what I have, but I'm a weak undisciplined beer swilling pig.
I pour the yeast into a clean Mason and either add the wort it spun on or add a cheap beer to the rim. Snug seal but not too tight. I've heard people have explosions, but I have never had that.
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Post by Ken on Jul 14, 2020 12:19:33 GMT -6
I just wonder if they need a bit of O2 in there especially if they're going to be in there awhile. I generally dislike keeping blobs of yeast for any length of time. I had issues in the past using that method and it seems like it would just be asking for trouble. Of course, it could have been user error. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Ken on Jul 14, 2020 13:42:21 GMT -6
I started a THREAD over on AHA and 'ynotbrusum' came back with a comment about 'micro-flora' in the air during the summer. I have no idea if this is a thing but it's interesting.
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Post by bklmt2000 on Jul 14, 2020 14:46:06 GMT -6
o How often do you break down your kegs and give them a good cleaning? Immediately before kegging; keg, parts, and racking gear all soak in hot PBW for a couple of hours before a thorough rinse and sanitizing with Starsan. o How often do you clean & sanitize your draft lines? Not often enough. Before my next batches go on tap, the lines will get an extra-thorough cleaning/sanitize, since they've not been used for almost 2 months now. o When you save yeast in a flask, Mason jar, etc., do you just clean & sanitize it or do you use boiling water? Soak in PBW, scrub off any stubborn gunk, rinse thoroughly, then Starsan. o How many times might you use the same yeast before retiring it? Anywhere from 3 to 10 times, depending on how the beer it just fermented turns out, how the yeast looks/smells after harvesting, etc.
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Post by OldMan on Jul 14, 2020 15:40:40 GMT -6
I have found sometimes being "too fussy" about cleaning can induce new problems. Specifically taking things apart, cleaning them and re-assemble, only to discover my reassembly was not perfect, now I have a leak to deal with. I have been saying for years, a great overlooked cleaner is plain old bleach. It is a great tool for the home brewer. Anything bleach touches will be sanitized. There is a very good book (lousy miniseries) called The Hot Zone. It is about scientists working with the ebola virus. Throughout the book, these guys had chlorine bleach at the ready in case of potential ebola exposure. They could have used other stuff, but they trusted their lives with Chlorox. I can hear the chorus ringing out, "It is not safe on stainless steel!" Certainly do not soak stainless steel with chlorox. But why would you soak stainless steel in Chlorox? To be honest, I very rarely use Chlorox on stainless steel. If I did, it would be for minimum exposure and deep rinse. But plastic and glass? No problems there. True, you have to rinse plastic and glass to get rid of the chlorox. You are wise assume your tap/rinse water is not germ free. OK, rinse with tap water, then use Iodophore or StarSan or what ever. But all you are asking Iodophore or Starsan to do is sanitize the tap water. If I disassemble a plastic spigot, those parts are going to see a good solid exposure of bleach. Tubing? Bleach blast it. Ferment bucket? Yes, bleach. Carboy, Erlenmeyer flask or other glass? Bleach it, rinse it. And if you know how to do it correctly without killing yourself the addition of vinegar to lower the pH makes diluted bleach water more effective as a sanitizer
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Post by pkrone on Jul 14, 2020 16:40:16 GMT -6
Timely post again... I was just cleaning/sanitizing my tap lines. I try to do it after 2 beers or any time a line is going to be sitting for a while unused.
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Post by Ken on Jul 14, 2020 17:30:43 GMT -6
I should mention that I have been in hyper-cleaning mode for about 2 months (just looking closer at things, boiling silicone tubing, doing some very serious cleaning on my kegs, etc) but I am drinking beer that was brewed prior to that so I should probably draw a line somewhere. I'm curious about this "summer micro-flora" concept and a few other things including using dry yeast 1-2 times during the summer and then just move onto different dry yeasts so I'm not using the same slurry so many times. I understand how to clean things but I don't know how to compete against micro flora. I'll update as things continue. One job is to determine how the THREE beers are where Bayern was used. Hopefully they're in good shape.
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